Need expertise sanding aluminum flat for concours quality reflections like a mirror!

[Mike Phillips]

Need expertise sanding aluminum flat for concours quality reflections like a mirror!

Today I received an email asking for help for a very unique process. The owner of O.D.D Pars Fabrication in Sonoma, California is custom fabricating and finishing LARGE Aluminum Wheel Covers, like which came on classic cars like,

• Delage
• Delahaye
• Rolls Royce
• Hispano Suissa

What is needed is a way to sand aluminum COMPLETELY FLAT so when the sanding marks are buffed out, the resulting aluminum surface reflects perfect images like a mirror. Below is the email and after the email are some pictures showing what Jim is talking about.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Mike,

Found you on YouTube. Thank you for instructive information.

We spin Aluminum and other alloy “Wheel Covers” for show bound 100-point cars—mostly pre-war vehicles—back when the only wheel you could get was a spoke wheel. Our wheel covers are “Era Correct” for many classics such as Delage, Delahaye, Rolls Royce, Hispano Suissa ETC ETC. See attached photos.

Our covers are Lathe Spun from the over 250 phenolic mold dies that we have on hand. ( long story—call if interested)

Spinnin process is a life long developed skill, and although I have a huge spin lathe- capable of 36” spare tire wheel cannisters that I am setting up now.- expecting to be the “Boy Wonder!” of spinning trade. Yet realistically I might not live so long. HA!

We have our covers professional spun by West Coast Spinning, Geoff Wilson- 45-year experienced metal spinner. The Point is coming up—bear with my story, please.

The process of spinning puts tooling marks into the aluminum—EVEN when spun using a Teflon PTFE tool! These “record player lines” are smoothed over by the spinner using about 120 grit paper before delivering to us.
We built a “Potters Wheel” vertical lathe for progressive grit dry and wet-block sanding prior to buffing the aluminum. The low very low RPM table has the same phenolic spin die that was used to spin the cover rotating—allowing us to block sand the various flat surfaces of the wheel cover backed by that die.

Then, I buff the covers on a professional 7.5 HP 3 phase machine using brown Tripoli and an airway buff. Yes, after green compound—VERY impressive!

However, we are faced with “Louis Vuitton” quality competition at Pebble Beach Concourse De Elegance this year again and need “The Perfect Mirror” flat reflection without distorted reflective image of any kind! This is a step beyond….

Specifically, the surfaces must be perfectly flat before ANY polishing. The original .060” aluminum is now squeezed , tooled, and sanded to about .050” pure aluminum sheet. The polished aluminum now STILL reveals concentric “waves” from original spinning process. That is, the reflection is a bit of a fun-house mirror.

I was told by a sage and savvy body man once that wet sanding—even with a block—when using anything finer than 220 paper “clings” to the surface and will cut both the mountain tops and the valleys simultaneously- thus not actually flattening—but rather “riding the waves” in the aluminum. Yes, we discovered that to be pretty much true. AND, one would THINK that we have flattened—until buffing proves us wrong! The surfaces we are sanding are only 3” wide. See photos—and very difficult to move by hand a flattening block.

I was thinking that a DA sander having a 2” pad would be ideal to flatten out these waves- with maybe a 320 grit?? No such DA exists, I think. And still- a steep learning curve for technique. Pebble Beach approaches. What is your advice in this torturous work?

Any help, ideas, and/ or referrals?

Thank you,


Jim Simpson,
Jim Simpson and crew
O.D.D Parts Fabrication
18853 Orange Ave
Sonoma, CA 95476
Cell: (707)738-9661
Email: oddparts@vom.com
Website: www.oddparts.net

Mike

 

[Mike Phillips]

Here's my reply via email and to this thread on my forum.


Hi Jim,

I’m happy to hear you found me via YouTube, but to be honest, the goal you’re trying to achieve is beyond my knowledge base. I’ve sanded and buffed a lot of aluminum, but nothing with the goal of the kind of Louis Vuitton quality you describe in your below email. I do know a few guys in our industry that buff aluminum, but not anyone that sand and buffs aluminum with the goal of creating perfectly flat surfaces.

I can check with my friend Mike Stowe, maybe he knows of a person. He’s a long-time custom car builder and a lot of his cars have one-off custom-made aluminum wheels.

My other friend, Joe Fernandez polishes a lot of aluminum-bodied War Planes, so he has a lot of aluminum polishing experience, but I don’t think he sands these old war planes flat. I’ll ask if he knows anyone.

I also am good friends with Jeremy Miranda, (MirandaBuilt.com), and Shawn Kiddy, (Kiddy’s Classics), I can check with them also.

KiddysClassics.com

MirandaBuilt.com



As for a DA sander with a 2” backing plate, the one I use for car paint is the FLEX PXE-80. This polisher comes with a 1” and 3” backing plate but there are 2” backing plates available. The way I use this DA Polisher is as a DA Sander. I use Eagle Abrasives by KOVAX sanding discs, and the make a huge selection of grits and types.

Because they only offer the sanding discs I use in 3”, 5” and 6”, I’ll purchase 6” and then place my 2” backing plate onto the velcro hook and loop material and draw a line around the backing plate, then move the baking plate over to a new area and repeat this process until I’ve drawn 2” circles over the entire sanding disc and then I cut these out with scissors. Kind of Caveman style but works for me when flattening orange peel on car paint.

They Eagle Abrasives also have different interface pads, and the medium interface pad would probably work best for what you’re trying to do. Maybe the HARD interface pad, but the stiffness of the hard interface pads tends to slow down sanding disc rotation, thus not optimum for sanding.

I’ve had good luck placing a medium interface on the backing plate and then placing a HARD interface pad on the medium interface pad and the applying the sanding disc. The medium enables better sanding disc rotation while the hard interface keeps the sanding film disc FLAT to the surface, which is what you want.

I demonstrate this tool in this video,

How to Fix ETCHING from Bird Droppings! (Clear Coat Damage Repair)

These are battery operated tools but with a fully charge battery they work really well. I’m guessing you would set up a PXE-80 with a 2” backing plate, a foam interface pad and the sanding grit of choice, and then run the sander as the wheel covers are spinning on your pottery wheel?


I disagree with the other guy’s opinion/experience of hard blocking when sanding. The entire idea behind using a HARD block is because it will keep the face of the sanding disc flat against the surface being sanded. That said, he could be correct, and I just don’t know what I’m talking about, or I don’t know or have his better experience. I'm a perpetual student, I’m always looking to learn more about everything car related.

I’m not sure how you would wrap a sheet of sandpaper around a hard block and then somehow hold the block against the spinning wheel cover, but it might be able to be done? Definitely do this using some water and a few drops of soap in the water.


I’ll check with my friends Mike, Joe, Shawn, and Jeremy and see if they know anyone that would have the very specialized knowledge you’re looking for. Sad to say, but it’s possible a lot of this knowledge has since left earth when the craftsman that had this knowledge left this earth.



Mike

 

[Mike Phillips]

And just to note...

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Mike

 

[Mike Phillips]

***Update***

I contacted all my friends that I thought might know something about the correct technique - OR - might know someone that knows something about the correct technique to flatten the aluminum to perfection before buffing and I just received a text from my long-time friend Shawn Kiddy, at Kiddy's Classics, who himself is a world-class panel beater.


From Shawn,

Hey Mike - I hope all is well - I have a few ideas as to how I would go about it but the best guy in the industry that he should try reaching out to is Fay Butler - Have him reach out to Fay Directly

Faybutler.com

Fay Butler Fab/Metal Shaping
51 Cleveland Road
PO Box 106
Wheelwright, MA 01094
Cell: 413-477-6449
Email: fay@faybutler.com


There you go Jim, give Fay a call or shoot him and email or even share the link to this thread with Fay so he can see the pictures easily on a monitor, tablet or phone.



Mike