Hologram free using only a rotary polisher?

[Mike Phillips]

Hologram free using only a rotary polisher?


I've been in a great discussion with Bill G about using rotary polishers with the end-goal of finishing out hologram free. Bill started by discussing this topic with me via email but as most of you know, I MUCH prefer to hold discussions, especially deep discussion on a forum. With email, 2 sets of eyeballs see the discussion. On a forum, potentially tens of thousands of people will see the discussion. My original article on the geek forum about how to restore antique, original single stage paint had, 641,731 views

And that was back in April of 2021 when I took the below screenshot.

I'm sad to say, Autogeek has done what's called a "Soft Delete" of all my how to articles? I emailed the Admin last week asking if they would undo the soft delete but I've never heard back from them. What a Soft Delete means is, the articles are still there, they are just invisible when you visually LOOK for them in the forum group. Here's the forum group where I have over 700 how-to articles.

How to Articles

If you type the right key words into Google, you can find my how-to articles, but if you LOOK for them, they are invisible. Now why would Autogeek want to do this?


My bigger picture point being, discussing car detailing in email works, but tens of thousands or over a half million people according to the stats above, can see, read and participate in a discussion on a forum but not in an email. Make sense?


So here's the conversation about holograms and rotary polishers.

Mike,

I have been a fan of much of your historical comments in the AG forum over the last 6 years and I remember coming across a lengthy comment you had on why it is nearly impossible to finish a correction with a rotary, that anyone who claims they can do it flawlessly is lying (essentially). However, I came across a few YouTube videos of Yvan Lacroix making a persuasive argument why all the fear about rotary polishers is BS. That if run at the lowest speed, and without pressure along with a damp pad, it is the best gloss and shine you will get. That D/A's are really for cutting and not finishing down paint the best. That they leave micro marring. I know you prefer to answer in your forum, but I haven't signed up yet (plan on doing so), so if you would kindly answer in my email or to your new AF forum, I would greatly appreciate it.

Regards,

Bill

Hi Bill,

What I always say about finishing with a rotary only is this,

It’s not about the person, the pad or the product – it’s about the PAINT. Instead of risking leaving holograms behind, (because you can’t see them in the moment), eliminate the risk and simply finish down with any dual action polisher.


As you know, paint is different and always changing. Some paint is more polishable than others. I would never try to change Yvan’s opinion – that’s him and his experience. Me? I’ve had different experience over the decades.

By the way, here’s a car I detailed using ONLY a rotary buffer from back in 2011 - the picture below were me showing the final results outside in full overhead sun. It was a tick cloudy that day, something I have no control over, but I did move the car outside and take pictures to show no holograms. These pictures can be found on page 7 of the thread, which was a review of the NEW (at that time), DeWALT 849X.


Bumblebee - Testing out the NEW DeWALT DWP849X

And if you read the entire thread, I talk about how most people that say they can finish with only a rotary never prove it. In the article, I prove it by pulling the car out into high overhead sunlight and take pictures.

That’s the thing about “claiming” you can finish down hologram free – most people never prove it. They state it like a boss, but never prove it. The only way to prove it is to chemically strip the paint and then either move the car into bright, full-on overhead sunlight or use a strong swirl finder light.

I never see anyone prove it.

Mike

Thanks Mike, your quick response is greatly appreciated.

I need to rethink my idea of purchasing a rotary at this point. Back to square one. I have a D/A but not a forced rotation so I was thinking of getting the Flex 10-8 125 Supa Beast until I saw Yvan's videos. I need to find a place to try it out first it seems. All you guys are in the southeast and we never get a chance to go to mobile classes here in San Diego, otherwise I would have done that by now. As a 993TT owner that I bought new, I really became more interested in the aspects of detailing about 10 years ago. So I have limited time with polishing, especially paint correction given you can't do it much on any given vehicle. But since I peaked my interest tending to my 1997 Turbo, I have expanded to my daily drivers and looking for better tools in the process. It appears I need to think this through better and/or try to find a place to use both first.

BTW, it has been great watching all your videos and reading your forums. Would be nice to have 1/100th of your skill set. Wishing you the best at Autoforge, it appears to have been a great move for you.

Regards,

Bill

Hi Bill,

I love the rotary but from what I can tell, you would be much better served with the FLEX Supa BEAST. This is the tool I used this last weekend on the 1967 Ferrari. I strongly recommend getting the optional 6” backing plate and then take a look at the 6.75 foam pads I linked to in my article. They work GREAT on this tool and this size backing plate.

I think FLEX made a mistake when they packaged the CBEAST and the Supa BEAST with the factory 5” backing plate. These tools have a LOT of power and the larger backing plate enables you to take advantage of the power. The 5” doesn’t let you take advantage of the backing plate. Also – larger footprint pads make your buffing experience much smoother – this makes using the tool so much more enjoyable.

1967 Ferrari 275GTB/4 NART Spider detailed by Mike Phillips at AutoForge.net


Mike

And here's where we're at as of this morning, Monday, April 17th, 2023, when I asked Bill if it would be okay to move this discussion to the forum and he politely said "yes".

Hi Mike,

One last question for you. I have the Flex PXE 80 and I usually only use it for small areas with the D/A 3" head. So, this morning I put on the rotary spindle with a 2" black pad and fine polish just to see if in a small area I could replicate Yvan's approach to polishing with a rotary. I put it on speed 1 as he suggested, held it very lightly and just guided the polisher, and while I did better than I ever have, I couldn't get it completely hologram free. I did this on my black Model S so it was very easy to see my outcome with a swirl light.


So my question is:

With such a small pad is there a difference in difficulty getting a rotary action to finish out with a small pad vs the 14-2 150 with a black 6" waffle pad as Yvan was using?

Or would it be just as difficult, and I have no business (at this point) owning this tool?


As you suggested, I am inclined to go with the Supa Beast as my finishing polisher after this attempt, but just wanted to know if there is a difference with such a small pad. I know Yvan has 40 years of experience and it is foolish to compare my knowledge and ability with his or yours, which I am not, but just to satisfy my curiosity I would like to know. And when I say, just as difficult, I mean for someone who hasn't taken any instruction before, but just have done reasonably well with a basic D/A (PC) since 2017. He just made it look so damn easy and it would be hard to screw it up, so I figured buying the tool and using it for my final polishing (which I mostly do as I take great care for my cars and that is all they really ever need) would be a great option.

I can only share my experience, and what I've seen is when using small pads on rotary tool on dark paint, you will tend to leave a visible hologram in the paint. I think you are more able to finish out hologram-free with larger pads than smaller pads, I'm not sure if I can use a keyboard to verbalize why?

The ability to finish out hologram-free using ONLY a rotary polisher comes down to at least 2 factors.

1: Paint type - some paint is more polishable than other paints.

2: Abrasive technology - as most reading this and anything I've ever written or said in a video or detailing class - the MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR when it comes to polishing paint is NOT the person, the tool or the pad, it's the stuff that's touching the paint - the abrasive technology. And I "guess" some people in the car detailign world think that all abrasive technology is the same or unimportant but I'm here to tell you that "yes" even in the year 2023 - there is still low tech abrasive technology on the market.

One last question if I may. It seems like Tesla has very soft paint and highly susceptible to scratching, vs say, my Range Rover that seems quite hard and applied extremely well. Am I correct on that?

Yes you are correct. Some paint is hard, some paint is soft, some paint is right in the middle of the paint hardness/softness spectrum, where we all like it. And I would say some paint, simply due to the resin chemistry, is more polishable than other paints, or another way to say this would be, some paints are NOT as polishable than other paints. I believe someone at RUPES, could be my long-time friend Jason Rose, coined the term Sticky Paint, which is a paint that is both soft and more difficult to polish.

So "yes" paints are different and if a person buffs out enough cars they will discover this sooner or later.

I may be moving back to the east coast this year and will find myself spending time in Florida in the winter. If I make the move, I am definitely going to sign up for your classes.

I know you are extremely busy and am grateful you have taken the time to help out.

Regards,

Bill

Thank you for reaching out to me with your questions, I always appreciate anyone that values my opinion and/or feedback enough to contact me and ask questions. I hope I've been able to share at least my take on this subject of finishign out hologram-free using only a rotary polisehrs.


And to also share my opinion on this topic, here's what I think, share and practice.


Even if you can finish out hologram-free using only a rotary polisher, why risk it? By this I mean, because most people can't and/or don't know how to chemically strip the paint and then use strong light to inspect the results to ENSURE the paint is in fact hologram-free, why risk it? Instead, use ANY brand of orbital polisher, either gear-driven or free spinning for your last machine polishing step and take comfort knowing if you're using great abrasive technology that the oscillating action of the tool will work-out the hologram scratches and leave a more perfect finish that will hold up to strong, bright light over time.


Again, just my take on the topic after being burned one time a long time ago before all these orbital polishers some take for granted were even invented. Here's the car and the owner that burned me.


1958 Chevy Bel Air

The lady in the picturte is the wife of the guy that built the car. The car was painted a Black Cherry Metallic.

Mike Phillips

 

[Bill G]

Thanks for taking the time to go through this with me Mike. Greatly Appreciated! I started out using Sonus SFX-2 and 3, which from my understanding was a pretty good quality abrasive (maybe not?). But now, depending on the car, I use Sonax or CarPro Essence and Essence +. Should I be entertaining something else?

 

[Mike Phillips]

Thanks for taking the time to go through this with me Mike. Greatly Appreciated!

No problemo, love talking about cars and car detailing.

I started out using Sonus SFX-2 and 3, which from my understanding was a pretty good quality abrasive (maybe not?).

I have not used any SONAX product for a few years now. I used to showcase their products in my geek classes and I thought they were well. My favorite was SONAX Perfect Finish with a rotary. I would have to revisit the latest formulas using an orbital on black paint to have a fresh opinion.

But now, depending on the car, I use Sonax or CarPro Essence and Essence +. Should I be entertaining something else?

I did testing with all these products some time ago, either all the pictures were left on my geek computer hard drive or there might actually be a write-up in the Rough Draft forum group, which is hidden from public view. I tested around 6, 7 maybe 8 brands to see if I could finish out hologram free using soft foam gold finishing pads using a rotary polisher. From memory, none of the product finished out hologram free. This included chemically stripping the paint and then using a swirl finder light to inspect. This is a really harsh test and I'm not surprised.


Let me ask you a couple of questions about what your end-goal is?

For any of your cars,

1: Do you want to seal the paint with some type of ceramic or graphene coating?

OR

2: Are you happy to finish out with some type of conventional wax or synthetic sealant?



-Mike

 

[Bill G]

Hi Mike,

On my 993TT I want to keep the paint as original as possible, so no ceramic for that. Plus, it just doesn't see the road time it used to (1,100 miles in last 4 years). So, I had lightly machine polished it for the first time ever 5 years ago (it has been extremely well cared for over the years, always garaged and never driven in rain), then in 2021, took it to one of the leading shops on the west coast (Elite Finish Detailing). They saw it was in amazing shape and only recommended a light polish of Essence and Essence+ combo, and PPF'd the whole front of the car with Stek DynoShield and Carpro Skin over the film portion. Maintain the whole car with Reload. So that's the way it has been kept since.

On my cars, I have used the Klasse twins for years and always like the results, and durability for 100% garaged cars. Then from time to time I would top with P21S. Maintained with Pinnacle Crystal Mist when waxed, or with Sonus Acrylic Mist when only had the Klasse SG on. The other cars I now own are less than 2 years old, so I have been thinking about ceramic but haven't done it yet. I know it is the easiest maintenance approach, but just haven't done it for a variety of reasons. So I finally switched away from the Klasse twins (the bottles lasted me forever, I think 7 years) and picked up the McKee's 37 Graphene DGPS from Nick a while ago. Loved how it went on and looks, but now waiting to see the longevity vs my experience with Klasse. So far, McKee's 37 Graphene DGPS wins that race on application alone, slight win for slickness over Klasse. Without a gloss meter, personally I can't tell the difference side by side. That has been my short-term decision as I have not decided which ceramic I want to go with.

So, to answer your question, am I "happy with conventional wax or sealant?" The answer would be "YES" in general, but knowing I am causing more work for myself and that there are far better protection options out there, I know my approach isn't optimal. Another reason I haven't really done anything more permanent is that living in San Diego weather and putting less than 3k miles a year on any of my "daily drivers", it hasn't been very tough to keep them looking great on a daily basis. This is why I started with my first question: "what is the best tool for maintenance fine polishing?" as my cars never get that bad for full corrections to be necessary.

I have thought about getting the CarPro Finest Reserve done on my other cars, just haven't done it yet as I may not have them for more than another year or two. Consequently, I was thinking of just applying a DIY product. Products I have considered if I go the DIY route: McKee's Graphene Pro Coat, CarPro UK 3.0 with SIC over it, Carbon Collective, Kamikaze, and one or two of the Gtechniq product combos. I know there are many poor-quality coatings and several other ones to be considered viable, but one has to narrow the scope down at some point, and those five seemed to me like top choices for DIY coatings.

Your insightful thoughts are welcome.

All the Best,

Bill

 

[Mike Phillips]

Thanks for taking the time to go through this with me Mike. Greatly Appreciated! I started out using Sonus SFX-2 and 3, which from my understanding was a pretty good quality abrasive (maybe not?). But now, depending on the car, I use Sonax or CarPro Essence and Essence +.

Should I be entertaining something else?

Let me ask you a couple of questions about what your end-goal is?

For any of your cars,

1: Do you want to seal the paint with some type of ceramic or graphene coating?

OR

2: Are you happy to finish out with some type of conventional wax or synthetic sealant?

-Mike

So, to answer your question, am I "happy with conventional wax or sealant?" The answer would be "YES" in general, but knowing I am causing more work for myself and that there are far better protection options out there, I know my approach isn't optimal.

Another reason I haven't really done anything more permanent is that living in San Diego weather and putting less than 3k miles a year on any of my "daily drivers", it hasn't been very tough to keep them looking great on a daily basis.

This is why I started with my first question:

"what is the best tool for maintenance fine polishing?"

as my cars never get that bad for full corrections to be necessary.

The best tool for maintenance fine polishing would be first, to keep thing simple. Once you apply a ceramic coating, or any type of semi-permanent coating, polishing is functionally out of the question because if you polish the surface of a coating you are removing the coating.

If you think you want to re-polish from time to time, I would recommend a high quality AIO like the 3D SPEED followed with an application of 3D Bead It Up. Super simple product to use. The resulting finish will be show car quality and the Bead It Up will keep the paint surface slippery and this makes future "touching" safe. Touching meaning any way you would normally "touch" the paint, primarily these three ways,

1: Washing and drying the car - washing means touching the paint with a wash mitt and drying for most people means wiping the car with a drying towel.

2: Apply a spray detailer or waterless wash - you spread with a microfiber towel and wipe the product off with a microfiber towel. Again --> touching the paint.

3: Apply Bead it Up an then wipe it off. You spread with a microfiber towel and wipe the product off with a microfiber towel. Again --> touching the paint.


The benefit to the above approach is if anyting ever happens to the paint , for example a light scratch, marring, bird dropping, etc. You can simply lightly polish that single area using the 3D SPEED and then re-apply the Bead It Up to that area and the entire finish will have a uniform look and the process is fast and simple. Fast and simple is the key. This fits your requirement for

"what is the best tool for maintenance fine polishing?"

Only the word tool should be plural and it would include,

1. Polisher
2. Foam finishing or foam polishing pad
3. Microfiber towels
4. 3D SPEED
5. 3D Bead It Up

If you were to go down the coating road, you can still to spot repairs but it becomes more involved and thus more complicated.

I have thought about getting the CarPro Finest Reserve done on my other cars, just haven't done it yet as I may not have them for more than another year or two. Consequently, I was thinking of just applying a DIY product.

Products I have considered if I go the DIY route:

• McKee's Graphene Pro Coat
• CarPro UK 3.0 with SIC over it
• Carbon Collective, Kamikaze
• And one or two of the Gtechniq product combos.

I know there are many poor-quality coatings and several other ones to be considered viable, but one has to narrow the scope down at some point, and those five seemed to me like top choices for DIY coatings.

Your insightful thoughts are welcome.

All the Best,

Bill

I recently used the McKee's Graphene Pro Coat 2.0 and would recommend it to everyone. It was a super simply process to apply it but keep in mind - no matter what coating you choose, the time and labor aspect is in the PREP STEPS.

I haven't used CarPro UK 3.0 in years but have it on my To Do List as I get future car detailing projects.

I just used the IGL Poly Ceramic Coating - not on your list but I have a write-up coming and it is also a very easy to apply ceramic coating.

I have not used Carbon Collective Kamikaze

It's been a while since I've used any of the Gtechniq products but this is an established brand so I would trust any product from them.


I myself like coatings for daily drivers because the protection, gloss, self-cleaning effect, etc., lasts so much longer than conventional waxes and sealants. That said, for show cars and garage queens where the owner actually like to actively take care of the paint - then sticking with the approach I listed above is super simple.

You could also modify the above by using the 3D SPEED as a "polish" and then topping with a dedicated protection product that also adds LOTS of slickness and is super easy to use and for this I would recommend the product I just used on the 1967 Ferrari - the McKee's 37 Graphene Deep Gloss Ceramic Sealant.

How to apply the McKee's 37 Graphene Deep Gloss Ceramic Sealant by hand or machine for a show car finish

Hope that helps...


Mike

 

[Bill G]

Mike,

Thanks for the detailed info, I greatly appreciate your time and wealth of experience. I have not tried the 3D products yet, and since I just purchased the McKee's Graphene DGCS, I will be using that for quite a while. I was going to ask you if you recommend using the Bead it Up over the top of the McKee's Graphene DGCS, or use McKee's Graphene detail spray (to stay in same family). But I just looked at the product description and see it is much more than just a detail spray, it's an actual spray on sealant., so I assume it isn't necessary over the top of the McKee's Graphene DGCS.

I am sure life will be much easier on my regular drivers if I were to move on to ceramic, I just need to decide on which one to use. The McKee's Pro Coat 2.0 seems like an easy process.

All the Best,

Bill