Using Paintwork Cleansing Lotions

[Bill G]

Mike,

I caught your two full detailing videos from 2013 with Wolfgang and Pinnacle products. I haven't used a paintwork cleansing lotion begore as I usually just use a finish polish if needed then a paint prep wipedown before using McKee's Graphene DGCS (my new preferred sealant). It sounds like if the paint really doesn't need to be abraded (even with a micro polish) that this is a product that should be used before applying an annual or semi-annual sealant. What are your thoughts on the various ones offered like P21S Gloss Enhancing Paintwork Cleanser, Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion, Wolfgang Paintwork Polish Enhancer? Are they pretty much all the same? And is Mckee's Coating Prep Polish targeted at paint that is going to be coated while the others are more targeted at sealed and waxed paint surfaces? Lastly, do you use a panel prep wipedown after using these products or just lay the sealants/waxes/coatings over them?

Regards

 

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Bill,

Thank you for the question. I love questions.

I'm am NOT a big fan of most paint cleaners. I thin I explain why in an article I wrote in 2019 on the geeky forum. I'll copy and paste below.

Heading out to detail a 1958 Studebaker, you know, walking the talk. will be behind my computer later today or tomorrow.

 

[Mike Phillips]

A paint cleaner is an either/or product - The difference between a paint cleaner and a paint polish by Mike Phillips


There's always been a TON of confusion over paint cleaners. I remember back when Meguiar's sold their 3-Step consumer line of product that included a paint cleaner, a paint polish and a wax. The paint cleaner was NON-abrasive, chemical cleaning only. (I have a story about that product). Besides Meguiar's, a lot of other companies offer a simple, chemical-only cleaning product generically called a paint cleaner.


What is a paint cleaner?
A paint cleaner is typically cleans the surface of the paint to remove light oxidization, surface impurities, built-up wax, gloss enhancers, shine ingredients, etc. It LIGHTLY cleans or REMOVES anything sitting on the top surface to reveal a fresh base of paint. This prepares the paint to accept a coat of wax or synthetic sealant. For paint in new or like new condition, that is paint that either does NOT have below surface defects like swirls and scratches, or for people that DON'T care about removing below surface defects like swirls and scratches, a paint cleaner is a necessary product to use after washing and before applying a NON-cleaning wax or sealant.

Non-cleaning waxes and sealants - Show Car Waxes - Show Car Sealants
Most of the waxes and sealants at your local auto parts stores are one-step cleaner/waxes. The online world calls these AIOs. A cleaner/wax, or a cleaner/sealant or an AIO are all the EXACT same thing, just different words to give them a name. These types of products do 3 things in one step,

1. Clean
2. Polish
3. Protect

Non-Cleaning Waxes - Finishing Waxes - Show Car Waxes
Another group of waxes and/or sealants offer ZERO cleaning ability, at your local auto parts stores, these would be Meguiar's M21 Hi Tech Yellow Wax or Mothers California Gold Carnauba Wax. There might be other non-cleaning waxes at the retail level but historically, these are two such product that have been consistently available.


Here's the deal...

For neglected paint you can get away with a one-step cleaner/wax. But you CANNOT use a non-cleaning wax. The reasons should be obvious but if you don't know why - the paint on a daily driver gets a dirt stain on it from exposure to the world. A cleaner/wax will remove this dirt stain and leave the paint looking CLEAR and shiny while also protecting it. A NON-CLEANING wax or sealant will NOT remove road film or dirt staining. It also won't remove any oxidation or other surface impurities. In fact, it will seal all these negative substances ONTO the paint.

This is historically where paint cleaner fits into the car waxing process. If you're going to us a non-cleaning wax or sealant on a daily driver or on neglected paint, you would first use a paint cleaner.


What is a paint polish?
A true paint polish contain some form of ABRASIVE TECHNOLOGY. In my opinion and experience, the abrasive technology used by any brand of compounds and polishes is either GREAT or it's crap. There is no in-between because it either works, or it doesn't. If the abrasive technology works this means it can be moved over a painted surface where it will remove below surface defects WITHOUT leaving it's own mark or scratch. If it doesn't work, this means sure it will remove below surface defects but it replaces them with it's own defects usually called micro-marring.

Micro-marring is the kind, nice and fluffy way to say scratching.

So bad abrasive technology leaves scratches in the paint. I call this working backwards.


What is a Fine Cut Polish?
A fine cut polish is simply that, it only lightly abrades the surface to remove only a small amount of paint. Thus a fine cut polish is only for removing SHALLOW defects or for use after a more aggressive process like using an aggressive compound or a medium cut polish.

A fine cut polish can also be used in place of a paint cleaner as they will do the same thing, lightly clean the surface only a fine cut polish will do MORE than a paint cleaner as it will clean the surface AND remove shallow below surface paint defects.


Paint Cleaner vs Paint Polish

You either use a paint cleaner and move on to your sealing process OR you skip the paint cleaner and use a polish or a compound and polishes and then move onto your sealing process.

You don't use both. This would not only be redundant, it would be a waste of your time, energy and money.


And for what it's worth, I never use paint cleaners except to share what they are and how to use them.

Why?

Because for ALL the work and time it takes to apply a paint cleaner, which hardly does anything, (perfect for some paint and some people, just not me), instead I could use a fine cut polish.

1. A QUALITY fine cut polish, that is a brand that uses GREAT abrasive technology, will do EVERYTHING a paint cleaner will do and MORE.
2. A paint cleaner JUST lightly cleans the surface of paint.
3. A fine cut polish will lightly clean the surface of paint AND remove minor defects.

You get so much more bang for the buck from your time, energy, money and results to use a fine cut polish over a paint cleaner.

But as a co-worker here at Autogeek once said to me when I first came to Autogeek in 2009,

Never spend another man's money


So I'm not saying a paint cleaner is a bad product, it's the perfect product for some people and some paint.

But for me? I know how to use a machine so for the same amount of time, money and effort I would always choose a fine cut polish over a paint cleaner.


Make sense?


And that my cyber friends is the difference between a paint cleaner and a polish.

-Mike Phillips

 

[Bill G]

Thanks Mike, and why I have never used one before. Thought it was a waste of time and money as the differences you point out were always obvious to me. But when I saw your old videos, I had to ask in case I was missing something. Like the "nourishing oils" are good for the paint, etc. I guess if my paint was already perfect (or as polished as well as it needs to be considering the removal of v fine scratches vs further removal of clear coat tradeoff goes), and it had been quite a while since I last sealed or waxed it, then maybe. But I have a bottle of the Jescar Micro Cut Polish (cut: a 1/10, or possibly 2/10 with a white pad) in the garage and that always seems to be enough for an annual polish. On my garage queen, collector car, where I do not want to remove any clear coat at this point, then I guess if I ever felt they needed more shine, then I will check one out. Seems like the ones I mentioned are all pretty much the same quality.

 

[Mike Phillips]

Thanks Mike, and why I have never used one before. Thought it was a waste of time and money as the differences you point out were always obvious to me.

But when I saw your old videos, I had to ask in case I was missing something.

In those early videos - I didn't fully understand the minds of "marketing people". I'm a practical how-to guy and always thought paint cleaners were a waste of time, energy and money for the reasons I listed above.

Worse than that - some products marketed as non-abrasive paint cleaners will mar your paint versus perfect your car's paint, especially if applied by machine. Fact is - the softness of the paint is a big factor but just the same, a total waste of time, money and effort.

Like the "nourishing oils" are good for the paint, etc. I guess if my paint was already perfect (or as polished as well as it needs to be considering the removal of v fine scratches vs further removal of clear coat tradeoff goes), and it had been quite a while since I last sealed or waxed it, then maybe. But I have a bottle of the Jescar Micro Cut Polish (cut: a 1/10, or possibly 2/10 with a white pad) in the garage and that always seems to be enough for an annual polish. On my garage queen, collector car, where I do not want to remove any clear coat at this point, then I guess if I ever felt they needed more shine, then I will check one out. Seems like the ones I mentioned are all pretty much the same quality.

Like I have always recommended to folks...

Find something you like and use it often

And just to clarify - the word often simply means use it on an as-needed-basis.


-Mike

 

[Todd]

In those early videos - I didn't fully understand the minds of "marketing people". I'm a practical how-to guy and always thought paint cleaners were a waste of time, energy and money for the reasons I listed above.

Worse than that - some products marketed as non-abrasive paint cleaners will mar your paint versus perfect your car's paint, especially if applied by machine. Fact is - the softness of the paint is a big factor but just the same, a total waste of time, money and effort.




Like I have always recommended to folks...

Find something you like and use it often

And just to clarify - the word often simply means use it on an as-needed-basis.


-Mike

Mr. Phillips,

I'm a complete newbie/novice with no paint polishing experience whatsoever, so I bought some Wolfgang Paintwork Polish Enhancer to apply to the Midnight Black Metallic paint on my 2023 Camry LE with my Griot's Garage G8 and G9 polishers before I seal the paint with Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant.

I'm thinking that since I'm a complete noob, the Paintwork Polish Enhancer will be a good way to learn how to use my polishers without doing any damage to the clear coat( or removing any of it )on my car's nearly new and very nice looking paint.

My questions for you are as follows:

1. Do you agree with my thinking that the Paintwork Polish Enhancer may be a good way for me to learn how to use my polishers
without damaging or removing any of my clear coat?;

2. I should still chemically decontaminate the paint with an iron remover after washing and drying the paint, correct?:

3. I am NOT planning on mechanically decontaminating the paint with any type of clay media, since I know you always say to polish
after claying and I'm not planning on polishing the paint right now, only using the paint cleaner before sealing. Do you agree with
this approach, or would you recommend I also clay the paint before using the paint cleaner and sealing? I'm thinking claying AND
applying the paint cleaner would be somewhat redundant in addition to possibly marring the very-good condition paint, but I will, of
course, defer to your expert opinion, Sir.

So, I'm thinking my process will be wash, dry, chemically decontaminate, rinse, dry, apply Paint Cleaner with my G8 and G9, and finally, seal with my G8, G9, and Deep Gloss Paint Sealant.

Please let me know your thoughts on my planned process when your busy schedule allows, and Thank You VERY Much for everything you've done for the detailing community over the years. It is Most Appreciated, Sir!

Thanks Very Much for Your Time and Consideration in answering these questions, Mr. Phillips.

Have an AWESOME Day!

Todd Clevinger

 

[Mike Phillips]

Mr. Phillips,

I'm a complete newbie/novice with no paint polishing experience whatsoever, so I bought some Wolfgang Paintwork Polish Enhancer to apply to the Midnight Black Metallic paint on my 2023 Camry LE with my Griot's Garage G8 and G9 polishers before I seal the paint with Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant.

I'm thinking that since I'm a complete noob, the Paintwork Polish Enhancer will be a good way to learn how to use my polishers without doing any damage to the clear coat( or removing any of it )on my car's nearly new and very nice looking paint.

My questions for you are as follows:

1. Do you agree with my thinking that the Paintwork Polish Enhancer may be a good way for me to learn how to use my polishers
without damaging or removing any of my clear coat?;



Todd Clevinger

I was never a fan of that product or the other products like it with different labels.

I would stick with what I already wrote,

What is a Fine Cut Polish?
A fine cut polish is simply that, it only lightly abrades the surface to remove only a small amount of paint. Thus a fine cut polish is only for removing SHALLOW defects or for use after a more aggressive process like using an aggressive compound or a medium cut polish.

A fine cut polish can also be used in place of a paint cleaner as they will do the same thing, lightly clean the surface only a fine cut polish will do MORE than a paint cleaner as it will clean the surface AND remove shallow below surface paint defects.

If you're dead set on using the paint cleaner, FIRST do a Test Spot and make sure you're getting great results.

Place a strip of tape on a flat panel like the hood or trunk lid and then only apply to one side of the tape line following directions on the label. Wipe off and inspect. Using a strong light like overhead sunlight and/or a swirl finder light or even the flashlight on your phone.

There are a lot of variables involved here, but what you want to do is make sure the paint cleaner and/or combination of the paint cleaner and whatever pad you're suing are not causing micro-marring.

If the product and process is causing micro-marring - you'll be glad you did a Test Spot as now you only have to undo damage to one spot.

If the product and process is making the paint look great - then repeat over the rest of the car.


As stated in this article, (the first post of this thread is the article), I'm not a fan of paint cleaners. For ALL THE WORK it takes to apply a paint cleaner you can use a fine cut polish and get all the benefits of a paint cleaner plus all the benefits of a fine cut polish.

Win/Win


Mike

 

[Mike Phillips]

For the record, I don't remember ever using a paint cleaner as a part of any professional work I've ever done.

I have used them in how-to articles to show "HOW" to use them, but never because I wanted to use one or thought it was a good idea or thought it would be better than using an actual polish that uses great abrasive technology.

-Mike

 

[Jayfro]

If you're going to break out the G9, I would just go ahead and use a nice Polish or All-in-One such as Blackfire One Step or even better 3D HD Speed as these AIO's are bubba proof meaning you're not going to mess anything up and you'll be improving the overall look of the car.

Speaking of quality products, I HIGHLY recommend using a quality polish or AIO, not the run of the mill or something that has a pretty label you can find at a big box store...they do not use quality abrasives and will mar the paint....take it from me...been there done that and Mike P saved my car a few years ago with his advice...I will be in debt to him for a very long time!

If you haven't used the G9 yet and you want to see how it feels to hold and use, go ahead and use WDGPS with a wax pad (lake country black pad) and go over the hood or trunk to learn the machine, you can always polish it off with polish or AIO.

JF

 

[Mike Phillips]

If you're going to break out the G9, I would just go ahead and use a nice Polish or All-in-One such as Blackfire One Step or even better 3D HD Speed as these AIO's are bubba proof meaning you're not going to mess anything up and you'll be improving the overall look of the car.

Speaking of quality products, I HIGHLY recommend using a quality polish or AIO, not the run of the mill or something that has a pretty label you can find at a big box store...they do not use quality abrasives and will mar the paint....take it from me...been there done that and Mike P saved my car a few years ago with his advice...I will be in debt to him for a very long time!

If you haven't used the G9 yet and you want to see how it feels to hold and use, go ahead and use WDGPS with a wax pad (lake country black pad) and go over the hood or trunk to learn the machine, you can always polish it off with polish or AIO.

JF

Good advice Jay.

 

[Todd]

I was never a fan of that product or the other products like it with different labels.

I would stick with what I already wrote,




If you're dead set on using the paint cleaner, FIRST do a Test Spot and make sure you're getting great results.

Place a strip of tape on a flat panel like the hood or trunk lid and then only apply to one side of the tape line following directions on the label. Wipe off and inspect. Using a strong light like overhead sunlight and/or a swirl finder light or even the flashlight on your phone.

There are a lot of variables involved here, but what you want to do is make sure the paint cleaner and/or combination of the paint cleaner and whatever pad you're suing are not causing micro-marring.

If the product and process is causing micro-marring - you'll be glad you did a Test Spot as now you only have to undo damage to one spot.

If the product and process is making the paint look great - then repeat over the rest of the car.


As stated in this article, (the first post of this thread is the article), I'm not a fan of paint cleaners. For ALL THE WORK it takes to apply a paint cleaner you can use a fine cut polish and get all the benefits of a paint cleaner plus all the benefits of a fine cut polish.

Win/Win


Mike

Thanks Very Much for Your Reply and Information, Mr. Phillips. I Greatly Appreciate It!

Could you please recommend a fine cut polish that would be best for my situation, Sir?

Thanks Again,

Todd

 

[Todd]

If you're going to break out the G9, I would just go ahead and use a nice Polish or All-in-One such as Blackfire One Step or even better 3D HD Speed as these AIO's are bubba proof meaning you're not going to mess anything up and you'll be improving the overall look of the car.

Speaking of quality products, I HIGHLY recommend using a quality polish or AIO, not the run of the mill or something that has a pretty label you can find at a big box store...they do not use quality abrasives and will mar the paint....take it from me...been there done that and Mike P saved my car a few years ago with his advice...I will be in debt to him for a very long time!

If you haven't used the G9 yet and you want to see how it feels to hold and use, go ahead and use WDGPS with a wax pad (lake country black pad) and go over the hood or trunk to learn the machine, you can always polish it off with polish or AIO.

JF

Thanks Very Much for Your Advice, JF. I Greatly Appreciate It, Sir!

 

[Mike Phillips]

Thanks Very Much for Your Reply and Information, Mr. Phillips. I Greatly Appreciate It!

Could you please recommend a fine cut polish that would be best for my situation, Sir?

Thanks Again,

Todd

Because you stated in your first post you're going to use the Deep Gloss Paint Sealant, then the Wolfgang Finishing Glaze.

NOTE: The Wolfgang Finishing Glaze is NOT a glaze, but a fine polish. The issues you run into when marketing companies "name" products is too often the people doing the naming are not detailers themselves, don't really care to be accurate and/or don't understand words mean things.

It used to be the stuff inside the Wolfgang compounds and polishes were made by Menzerna - if this is still accurate - Menzerna makes good stuff.


Mike

 

[Todd]

Because you stated in your first post you're going to use the Deep Gloss Paint Sealant, then the Wolfgang Finishing Glaze.

NOTE: The Wolfgang Finishing Glaze is NOT a glaze, but a fine polish. The issues you run into when marketing companies "name" products is too often the people doing the naming are not detailers themselves, don't really care to be accurate and/or don't understand words mean things.

It used to be the stuff inside the Wolfgang compounds and polishes were made by Menzerna - if this is still accurate - Menzerna makes good stuff.


Mike

Got it.

Thank You Very Much again, Mr. Phillips.

Have an AWESOME Weekend, Sir!

Todd

 

[Mike Phillips]

Thank you!

Walking the talk

 

[Todd]

Now THAT's a Dang FORD BRONCO! LOL.

 

[Riviera_Bluesman]

Not to beat a dead horse, but on the topic of paint cleaners I have found that using products like Pinnacle Paint Cleanser Lotion (could have the name incorrect) does work/help to remove paint transfer left on bumpers, etc.

But this is all I have used these for. Would agree that a fine polish is a better choice for doing a whole vehicle.

 

[Mike Phillips]

Not to beat a dead horse, but on the topic of paint cleaners I have found that using products like Pinnacle Paint Cleanser Lotion (could have the name incorrect) does work/help to remove paint transfer left on bumpers, etc.

But this is all I have used these for. Would agree that a fine polish is a better choice for doing a whole vehicle.

If I need to remove paint transfer - I'll tend to do the opposite of a non-abrasive paint cleaner and go old school by using a caveman compound, something where you can feel the abrasive technology. Then rub hard by hand to remove the IMPACTED on paint.

Then follow up with great abrasive technology by machine to remove any marring caused by hand polishing and finish the job.

What works just depends on how hard the paint transfer has impacted onto the vehicle paint.

-Mike Phillips

 

[paul a.]

For paint transfers I use Duragloss 501 paint cleaner and a firmer foam pad. My logic is...

Paint from hitting something else is sitting on top of the vehicle paint. Yes, there may be scratches with that little rub i'll address later but i first remove the rubbed on paint. My thinking is related to preserving clearcoat thickness by simply removing what's on top of the paint. Kind of like a decon effort. Then i can assess and correct any scratches below the surface.

Many times the scuff or rub is much larger than the actual scratches. My approach helps me see what's actually damaged paint by removing just the transferred paint first.

And then, yes, i might address the remaining scratches but maybe with my 2 or 3" pads on my rotary on only the scratched section, not the whole basketball sized rub or transfer before.

Plus the fact most of these "rubs" happen on plastic painted panels and i'm extra careful on those aggression wise.

Just a different approach and based on my experience.

Don't think i don't grab some rocks in a bottle on some of those cases. I simply try my less aggressive approach first and see if i can get away with it.